Skari
Planning
SkaredCast
Posts: 1,393
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Post by Skari on Nov 6, 2011 10:53:01 GMT -5
We have been talking. So I thought we should have a thread dedicated to this to make the organization and planning organized.
So far Ideas put forth:
4 Games a month (Warmachine, Warhammer*Fantasy and 40k*, Malafaux)
Involving all the areas, London, Stratford, Guelph, Kitchener/Waterloo, Woodstock.
A ranking leaderboard and official standing.
Entry fee.
Couple of main events: - Hotlead - Michael Mudd Memorial
Website creation to keep track of all the standings, events and other aspects of the league.
Cheers!
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Post by misterdarren on Nov 7, 2011 4:57:19 GMT -5
With all due respect, no thanks.
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peter
Planning
Posts: 477
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Post by peter on Nov 7, 2011 12:25:37 GMT -5
Maybe this should be explained more? This is a list of bullet points, with no frame of context, this means jack to me.
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 7, 2011 12:59:17 GMT -5
Gotta be honest, I'm not really for this idea. With a tournament you have a better game structure; The best players fight the best players based off their performance, giving everyone a relatively equal chance to win overall. It's possible that those two players could knock each other out of the running, giving others a chance. With a league, there are three major problems:
1) Getting in your 4 games. I show up to Pete's on a regular basis, and still only get about 1 'fun' game in a month, if I'm lucky (primarily right now because everyone's into warmachine, and plays that at other people's houses). Unless I want to drive all the way to london and try for a pickup game against people I don't know, there's no real chance of getting my games in. However if you get someone like you Riz, who posts at least 1 game a week because of your proximity to a game store, you'll always have your 4 games in, possibly more if you lose a few.
2) It's far too easy for people to pad their winning streak in a league. If you can pick and choose your battles, where's the incentive to pick tough opponents? All you have to do is pick 4 less experienced players and smoke them to get 4 wins. Alternatively, if you're in an area with limited opponents and the one who's always at the game store boasts an 85% win ratio with his army, what point is there in enrolling in the league? You're just throwing your money away. In a tourney, you're fighting who you've earned the right to fight, and at least you stand a chance of having some good games.
3)Tournaments are standardized. Everyone is using the same size of list, all playing the same game system, and all playing the same scenarios. In a league game there's no guarantee whether you're using battle missions, or while I play 1250pts games, you play 1850 against your opponent.
I think we should stick to typical tournaments, however change up the format. One month we have a 1500pt battle; the next, we play 750. Following that, 2000. Or do an escalation style tournament scheme, adding 500pts to your army every quarter. But I feel unless you've got a much greater degree of structure to it, a league is just asking for trouble.
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Post by mcbeath on Nov 7, 2011 13:05:08 GMT -5
I think Bob makes some good points here.
I have played in similar leagues at GW, and the issue was who lives closest/has more free time. I can put aside a day a week or every other, and just couldn't play enough games get a good score.
What I think would be a better idea is to try to organize a tournament structure locally, perhaps on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. If Mike Mudd said anything it was that a local group can organize a good event. It seems that as a group there is access to enough tables and terrain to run a good sized event. With the contacts people have it shouldn't be too hard to get a good sized group out for some fun games.
I'll be honest, with Imperial's decision to stop doing GW related events there has been an opening for events in the area and I've given some serious thought to trying to organize something. Quickly we are running out of places to go!
Thoughts? Cheers. James.
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 7, 2011 14:29:31 GMT -5
Once I got to school, I also had another thought; set up a pre-registration system with the TO. Perhaps, for every player who pre-registers before the actual day, the TO covers $1 of their entry fee. Now why do I suggest pre-registering? Quite a few of us have at least 2 armies (Sometimes more, depending), and at least one of these is a marine army. At normal tourneys I usually get a game in against 4 marine players.
With pre-registering, you could put a limit on how many of a particular army shows up (Say 25% of maximum). That way we get fewer mirror matches of marines on marines, and encourage a more diverse playing field(With that alternate army choice). If you only own one army, and that army is marines, then the TO is free to shuffle the playing field so that everyone can play, without flooding the tourney with more of the same. Just a thought; I for one am getting tired of having to chew my way through power armour whenever I come out.
And yes, I'm suggesting that all marines be grouped together, so all the specialists like BA/SW/GK etc would share the same 25% pool (Otherwise it'd all come down to the same old thing again). Not the most popular suggestion, but seriously; I don't see how Marine players (Of which I was one until this year) can stand playing the same games over and over again. Since 40k has been on the wane lately, not having to fight the same armies time and again could breathe new life into it.
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Skari
Planning
SkaredCast
Posts: 1,393
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Post by Skari on Nov 7, 2011 15:09:49 GMT -5
The league would be based on tournament scores... like the current one. Its basically what we are doing now, just expanded. Its def a WIP and more info will be released as it gets compiled. Right now I am looking for ideas, brainstorming. What would you like to see? This will then be evaluated, compiled and tested. If you want to have a more personal say make sure you PM me the details.
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Post by mcbeath on Nov 7, 2011 23:55:18 GMT -5
Ridvan:
I'm not really sure then what this will entail then.
By expanded do you mean that it will be based on a 12 games per year cycle at certain venues... like Hotlead, Mike Mudd, + 10 other games(which I suppose isn't expanded at all)?
Or more like Hall of Heroes of old, where all games played over the course of the year at any location will count? I ask because you have listed a few not so close areas above that have hobby stores.
I think that the second one will prove to be too much work for anybody to organize. Hall of Heroes had numerous problems and it was organized by GW(and overseen by people who's job it was to oversee it). Not to mention the concern that it would just cater to people who can drive around every single weekend to game(which was the biggest issue for me with HoH). A standardized event works best, though getting all those stores and gamers to agree would be pretty hard to do.
Maybe if you could just outline what it is your looking to start I'd be able to offer more in the way of comments/critism, ect.
Cheers. James.
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Post by Redeemer on Nov 8, 2011 10:15:00 GMT -5
I think that what would work and the intention of the the Gaming group would be to organize the tournaments for this area. and keep records of the wins. etc..
basically just making it a little more well managed than it already is and a tad more official.
its just a concept and what i think ridvan is looking for is opinions on how it WOULD work not how it WILL work.
also in brainstorming we are asked to find ways to help the idea grow not hack at its knees before its even standing.
just my 2 cents. it just seemed to many ppl where attacking the idea rather than giving it some thought.
I personally think that having a organizes tournament system that oversee games and regulate things like composition, and min maxing etc. could potentially be quite beneficial to southern Ontario.
Yes there is a large distance between London and Guelph but the idea is of a system we all agree to and it can then be implemented in other areas just as easily as sending a players pack so ppl know what to expect.
- Joaquin
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 8, 2011 10:47:37 GMT -5
I think there's been a misunderstanding.
When first posted, it was worded that this idea trying to be started is a gaming league.
Now the supporters of the idea are calling it a tournament league.
I support a tournament league (As I'm already in one with spellbinder). I support the idea of managing and running our own tournaments, using an official ranking structure, etc. Everyone's in the same place, you all have the same size army, and there are very few loopholes people can exploit (And we've all seen people who do just that, even at spellbinders from time to time).
However the 4 games a month idea originally posted is not a tournament league, but a gaming league. Not only that, but it was suggested it would have an entry fee, and as I mentioned it's amazing what happens once money is involved. I don't think is a very good idea, for the reasons listed; no one's attacking anything.
The problem here is that if the original intent all along was to create a tournament league, that should have been made a little clearer. And if the original intent was to suggest a gaming league, it's not our fault that our opinions are negative towards it; that's just how we feel about it. It certainly isn't meant to reflect back on the originator.
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Post by mcbeath on Nov 8, 2011 12:07:43 GMT -5
Hey,
I'm not trying to attack the idea, but I was asked for my thoughts. I think having an organized system to play games within is great and lacking in Ontario, not to mention Canada since HoH stopped.
The problem I think you'll find is when you start adding "house rules" or interfering with things like min-maxing, ect. It's all fine for friendly games in your own group, but it's not easy to do in an organized structure.
I love Astro's comp idea, though I admit it's kinda outdated with the new books out(and from what I heard will be changed for this year). It's not fair to players to say "hey, we don't like all mech armies so you can't bring it", and all that does is detract people. Gaming groups are different in each area, London for example has a good number of competitve players. Limiting thier ability to play thier way isn't going to attract them, for example.
House rules are another one. At Mike Mudd 2 players got into a disagreement(albiet a friendly one) over something as simple as how to place an objective marker. Both players had a valid standpoint, but it just goes to show how easy it is to disagree about things when your from different groups.
Critism, by it's very nature, is critical of an idea. Hopefully it helps to improve it, which was my only intent. I apologize if somebody took it the wrong way.
As for suggestions, I think you need the following:
- A set points limit for ALL games played in a circut, league, ect. - Transparent voting/judging of subjective things like painting, comp(if you even have it), ect. - IF any "house" rules are to be used they should be kept to a minimum and clearly stated in advance. - A reasonable amount of games, 1 per month seems to be the norm for most people.
I only want to point out the amount of work that will have to go into something like this for it to be successful. My questions as a potential participant would be:
- What would the entry fee entail/provide(prizes, just to support the league)? Is thier a refund policy if things don't work out in the long term or if I opted out? - Who will organize and manage this? Will they be also involved in gaming actively in the league and be eligable for prizes? - Would the events be held at hobby stores or at Mike Mudd style events with more overhead(and higher entry fee's)?
Probibly the people to talk to would be the event organizers who already run successful events like Warmasters of Conquest Toronto. They can probibly offer way more in the way of useful advice than I ever could.
Best of luck with this undertaking. Cheers. James.
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Post by Redeemer on Nov 9, 2011 10:28:51 GMT -5
I agree with the keeping the league with a minimum amount of interference with the game. in regards to house rules etc. and a composition requirement would need to be reviewed to update it to the new books
Also i think that the 4 games a month was in regards to 1 week each gaming system, as where listed in the original post (warmashine, fantasy, 40K, and malafaux) so it would be basically 1 organized tournament per gaming system a month.. i think that was the original idea behind it.
as for the membership fee i dont know what it would entail or where the money would go but i assume that it may go towards venues for the tournament/prizes. - a suggestion would be to allow "non-members" to participate and pay entry fees to the tournaments - and maybe members would then get lower tournament fees and allow their points to be recorded for the league
- maybe members get a flashy card (COOL!) lol
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Skari
Planning
SkaredCast
Posts: 1,393
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Post by Skari on Nov 9, 2011 11:18:59 GMT -5
@ Bob: Yes, the idea would be to continue the tournament league that we have been doing these last few years. Just with a more organized and formal approach. mcbeath: Yes, the system is lacking and we are looking to fill that void. The "house rules" are something that is very hard to do and awareness that not everyone will be happy always is important, regardless of what the system is. I have not yet seen the comp rules for astro I will give them a read. I have read and do like the system for Da Boyz that they released for this years event, as it is a simple rubric. daboyzgt.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ZECL9MNqa38%3D&tabid=77&mid=454We are well aware that this is going to be a marathon of work, and all this is just the stretching... As for your participant questions: - What would the entry fee entail/provide(prizes, just to support the league)? We do not know if there would even be an entry fee yet... but if so, it would go to a number of things, including but not limited to: - Prize support for the end of the year invitational event. - Maintenance and upkeep for terrain and tables. - Bandwith space if there is a dedicated website. - Incentive programs for league participant... random draws, contest participation. Is thier a refund policy if things don't work out in the long term or if I opted out?Has not been discussed but will be noted. Who will organize and manage this?So far a handful of people. We will be sorting out participation and roles within the project over the next few months. Will they be also involved in gaming actively in the league and be eligible for prizes?Has not been discussed. It will probably be on a tournament by tournament basis... like we have done. If participating tho, they will have to join up and meet any expectations as anyone else.(financial and otherwise) Bar in mind nothing is set in stone as it has not been talked about, but good point. Would the events be held at hobby stores or at Mike Mudd style events with more overhead(and higher entry fee's)?So far Just by chance games in waterloo has offered up their store to run events, in that case it will remain relatively similar and reasonable to the spellbinder events. The only 2 big overhead events are the Michael Mudd (fundraiser) and the Hotlead Convention, tournament is cheaper but you have to pay entry to the convention. Lastly, we will be contacting the organizers of these larger events once we have a better understanding of what we want to achieve with this. Keep em a rollin, thanks for the feedback. Anything is much appreciated.
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Post by mcbeath on Nov 9, 2011 11:32:49 GMT -5
In regards to organizers playing, ect:
I think the system in use now is good, where you guys rotate on who runs an event, or plays on a bi table for example.
Composition:
Astro announced this year that they think thier comp system is no longer viable with the new books... too many armies can move units around the force chart to bypass thier system. They have been looking at a new system, though nothing's been announced. If I hear anything I'll pass it along.
The suggestion about having a league membership offer lower rates at an event seems best to me. Even if it was like $5.00 off the entry it would be enough to encourage people to become members while allowing non-members to easily play.
Finally, about venues. Has anybody looked into renting a local space once a month here in Stratford? It's centrally located(to all the places above), is a short drive for all the KW-London gamers and would likely lessen the hassle of SGU people in providing terrain if that is the intention.
I'd imagine with all the people who game around here we should be able to use our contacts to find some reasonable accomodations, like in a church basement or something on a Saturday.
Cheers. James.
PS, I'd be willing to help out in organizing something like this if needed.
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 9, 2011 13:14:02 GMT -5
Just ran a couple lists through DaBoyz rubric. Tyranids (For the MMMT) - 55pts positive Space Marines in Drop Pods - 65pts... Negative.
Calgar - 30pts (plus 5 for having honour guard) No FA/HS + 2 Tac squads - 10pts (I have a Dreadnought, so my elites are covered) 5 Tac Squads w/different wargear - 30pts TAKING A THEMED LIST (Based on the Drop pod assault, one of the most iconic Space Marine fluff bits out there) - 70pts because, you know, drop pods are dedicated transports.
Even if I drop Calgar for a base chapter master so i can take my honour guard, dump two tac squads (Saving the 30pts) and gaining a FA and HS in pods (Saving 10pts), I still couldn't even attend because I chose to theme my list. Definitely won't be trying to participate in DaBoyz, ever.
Which brings me to the final point; we're going to have to do something about the 'you can not attend unless you score X points' caveat, or else I won't even bother showing up. I don't come to the Spellbinder events to win. I come to play 4 games, have fun, and go home. Being forced to limit my artistic nature to even play doesn't sound good to me.
Ugh... just ran my prospective Orks list through that scoreboard. -25pts because A) I themed my list around Deffkoptas, calling them Da Flyboyz (30pts), B) I have Wazdakka to make Bikes troop (20), C) I have no elites, so both the deffkoptas and 2 units of bikes shaft me on points (25), and a Final 30pts because I took 3 deffkopta squadrons (Though this is debateable, I think they may have meant vehicles.)
I would totally have to abandon my theme if I wanted to play this list. Noo thank you.
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