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Post by carlosthecraven on Nov 9, 2011 14:22:27 GMT -5
Hi
Regarding Da Boyz - I love the event, but it is definitely not everyone's cup of tea because of comp. Their goal is codex exploration, so spam = bad, which usually means that theme = bad. It makes their event different to the ones you usually go to, but you need to plan a little more carefully than normal.
It really isn't all that different from your (Dragonknight's) earlier desire to want different armies other than marines, except their demand forces you to change a unit or two, whereas yours is turning away some people's entire collection because they like powered armoured super-soldiers.
On a side-note, deffkopta squadrons are not penalized for being squadrons within the rubric, as it does indeed refer to squadrons of vehicles.
More on topic, I have started joting some notes down, but most of my concerns echo those outlined by James. Time constraints - those needed to run it effectively and the commitment expected of players that are expected to potentially commit 48 weekends a year to keep up for overall (assuming it combines all four games) - is a big issue.
More later.
Cheers, Nate
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Skari
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Post by Skari on Nov 9, 2011 14:31:07 GMT -5
Wow. Thanks all for the fast responses let's keep this going! @ Bob: true comp does knock some lists in the nads. @ Nate: time constraints- There would be a separate leaderboard for each system.. Not a combined one. This would allow people to pursue their particular interest and be able to also have a life .
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 9, 2011 16:24:53 GMT -5
If your 'entire collection' is only space marines, the TO would be free to shuffle the first come first serve people who have 2(or more) armies to the back of the 'Space Marine' queue, and would be asked to bring something different. I never said anything about turning people away; you're putting words in my mouth.
The difference here is that with my suggestion, those who are able to bring something new and different are encouraged to. With a rigid comp scoring system like this, instead, it's saying that you MUST play this style of army, and if you don't, you're not welcome. That is what I'm having issues with.
My involvement ends here, before another argument ensues. Good luck Riz, do what works for you, and if it ends up the new system isn't going to work for me I'll have to find somewhere else to get my games in.
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Post by carlosthecraven on Nov 9, 2011 20:40:28 GMT -5
Hi
This isn't an argument, just a discussion. There is no need to get your back up. I was just explaining their rationale. If I upset you, I apologise.
However, in the interest of discussion, I would fairly confidently assert that in a 20 man tournament, with a cap of 25% marines (1/3 of the Codexes out there) that, there would be more than 5 players that only have marine armies. The sixth person would be SOL. Assuming that players have more than one army is just as strong a composition imposition as any other. What did you have in mind as the limit? 33%? 50%?
I happen to agree with you wanting a larger variety of armies present is an interesting idea, but it does have a down side. Da Boyz want non-spam which is also an interesting idea with a serious downside.
There were some discussions at Da Boyz this time around about adding an element that reflects exactly what you want - a wider variety of armies to go along with a diverse army. Talk revolved around having either a hard limit, or having say 20 points that gets divide over the number of players using a particular dex. So if you had 10 marine players, they get 2 points each. The lone Tau player, on the other hand, gets all 20. I am not a huge fan of this first stab at it, but it is one way to encourage variety.
I happen to feel very strongly that variety at a tournament is a good thing. In 13 years of Warhammer, I have used a marine army at a tournament exactly once - Black Templars in the Codex:Armageddon days. I want to be one of those players that adds spice.
Cheers, Nate
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Skari
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Post by Skari on Nov 9, 2011 21:21:08 GMT -5
@ Bob: No need to end your involvement. This thread is not a desicionmaking one, it is to express ideas freely. Radical or not, if you want to be heard then contribute. This is not something to make myself happy or what works for me. I do find interesting the idea to cap different armies to encourage a variety of different armies at events. This is actually something that GW does at their grand tournaments, you have Best overall, but you also have the Best Amy of every different army so as to encourage everyone to come out to play with their army. @ Nate: I agree, too add spice to the game is like well aged beverage. That is why I began playing dark eldar before the new book came out. That is why I have stuck with my Templars for so long. That is why I want to start a Tau army... a challenge, something different. I am interested in hearing more
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shawn
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Post by shawn on Nov 10, 2011 0:32:14 GMT -5
Wow this went in all kinda different directions then originally inteded... the basic problem we have is that we are loosing spell binder as a regular tourny spot..i was hoping to discuss some options on what we could do to keep the group of gamers we have built up over the last few years still playing semi regular...
some ideas were thrown out like a a web based league... trying to set somthing up with just by chance games...
so far all i see is alot of negative responses i understand we can put together a good tourney for mike mudd and we have the tables but the hall and other expenses really cut into the possabilites...not to mention the massive headache of trying to organize such an event..
Simpley put what me and ridvan had discussed was trying to find some alternate was to keep are rather large and growing group of mini pushers together..
figured i would jump on and defend the mexican from getting deported.....most of what riz posted was kinda me and him throwing ideas around...... anyone got any ideas on what the group could do??? or what you would like to see???
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Post by misterdarren on Nov 10, 2011 5:48:42 GMT -5
See, I didn't know that. Spellbinders is gone? going? Huh?
I'm kind of in South Korea right now, so I didn't hear the news.
I'm all for keeping this thing going, having regular monthly events for games. In fact, I'm looking forward to attending a few the next time I'm home-which will be much longer this year!
What I'm against is the "Ontario Miniature Gaming League". First off, the title is way too pretensious. Like a handful of small cities in Sou'westo' can really represent ALL of Ontario. We'd need a better name.
Secondly, I'm against the League aspect. One thing I did not like about the Spellbinder League was the 'league'. There were all sorts of problems scoring each event, calculating averages, ranking players, what constitued fair or unfair scoring etc.
Yes, for example, I'm talking about that Apocalypse Tournament where someone deliberately tanked my Sportsmanship score because they were unhappy that they lost....
Anyhoo, point is, creating a sense of privelege and elitism, ie ranking, top 16, invitational and all that, is just going to discourage players from attending.
"You going to the OMG tourney this weekend?" "Nah, I'm so far behind in points, why bother?" "Yeah, me too." "Okay, let's do something else."
To be more constructive, what I suggest is that we continue to hold monthly events, somewhere, for the more popular game systems we all enjoy playing. Entry fees can go towards rental, supplies and all that.
Yes this means prize support might have to be more creative, but we're clever guys; we can think of something. (product, books, paints, Timmy cards, OOP goodies from our collections etc.)
Players come to events for two reasons: 1) I want free shit! 2) My army is the best!
Figuring out how to meet those desires and keeping this thing going, whatever form it may take, is the way I think we should go. The rest, for now, is just needless window dressing.
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Post by DragonKnight on Nov 10, 2011 8:41:03 GMT -5
<comedic interlude> I feel what has happened in this thread is best described thus: </comedic interlude>
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Skari
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Post by Skari on Nov 10, 2011 9:23:09 GMT -5
Lol. Missundersstandingss. Yes. On another note, just another brainstorming idea. Instead of COMP or any rigid form of army control, what about something like using the NOVA open mission style? www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2011-GT-Missions-v1.pdf For those of you who don't know how it works, basically every mission has kill points, table quarters and objectives. What happens is that every mission these three alternate as primary, secondary and tertiary. Primary determines win/loss but if tied then it goes to the secondary to determine win/loss, if tied it goes to tertiary for the win loss. So, say for example I have an army that is really good at taking a lot of objectives but sucks at KP's. Well I will try to tie up the KP's that happen to be the primary and then try to win on secondary as my opponent has few scoring units for example. This means that in every mission an army can try to deny the enemies strength and bring about their own and the number of "bad" matchups is greatly reduced under good generalship. Anyway. Just another thought. @ Darren: The name was just a catchy way of getting people to click on the thread, and controversial enough to begin discussion. It does not have to be anything official or tacky. The league aspect of the "league" has actually been working quite well so far but there is def room for improvement. @ Shawn: Thanks for the back up sir. Yes, he has it right we are trying to continue to keep the community of gamers together. And now that almost everyone seems to have branched out from 40K its just harder to keep things appealing to everyone. This thread is a place to make sure voices are heard and ideas are tossed at each other, a consultation of sorts. On another note. Rumour has it that 6th ed will be sometime next year, this means that for tournament play mid way through the season there might be some newer challenges.
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Post by mcbeath on Nov 10, 2011 12:15:43 GMT -5
Having given this some thought, and having read some of the newer responses(Shawn/Darren, ect): First, I think it's in everbody's best interest to organize something.... that being said now is a good time to talk/critique it to make it as good as possible. I think people are too concerned on the "negativity" of it, but consider this a business proposal... when you go to a bank they are VERY negative, because it helps you iron out the bad and really consider what your doing. When you considering spending your money to organize this, any second guessing you do is a good thing... you just have to be able to take that. A good step would be to treat this like a business plan. Saying "Hey, I'd like to have somewhere to play games" is like saying "Hey, I'd like to open a business cause I like Warhammer". It's good to know what you want, but I don't think people would invest thier time/money in a business if that was your plan As such, for this venture to be successful I think we need a clear goal, an idea how to get there, and then determine how much time and money can go into it. Darren makes some good points, in that there are different reasons that people go to events. I would guess that most people go to an event to win prizes(potentially) and have fun. Making things too competitive will deter casual/fun gamers, while making this too "fun" will in turn deter the competitive ones. Having "FUN" should be the goal here, as I think catering to the ultra competitive 'Ard Boyz style crowd isn't gonna be viable in the long term. Money is another concern. At what point is it resonable to attend an event. I, for example, spend around $50.00 in raw money just to travel to Spellbinders(entry,food,gas), not to mention a day's lost work. I'm good with that, it's a fun Saturday for me. IF I have to consider travelling farther(KW,London) the cost increases for me(extra meal, parking,more gas) and I would think harder about attending those regularly. The Goal here should be making things affordable and a "good investment" of the players time and money. Prize Support- I think that if we consider going the route of being on our own(and we should at least consider it) why not set something up with GW... give away gift certificates to GW's website to the winners? Astro does it now, and it's a great idea... IF I win I can get what I want, instead of just what's in stock. Hobby stores run events because it guarentees income and moving stock. It's in thier best interest to run regular and successful events, since the payoff for them is income. Some thoughts: - Why should we, as gamers, do all the leg work to move thier stock if it makes more sense to set up a local event here, with major cities like KW, London within an easy driving range? - Can we find an affordable space to rent on a monthly basis? Have we tried looking yet? Can we get a discount if we sign up for 10-12 events in a year? - Is a legion/hall a good choice? Will they offer a discount if they think that the bar will get sales for example? Do we have any legion members, masons, ect? - Parking! I'd rather pay $5.00 more to play at a hall somewhere instead of some hobby store with 2 parking spots, or spots where I have to pay to park. To finalize this, I think it would honestly be worth our time to sit down and do some research into the cost of running an event locally vs out of town. What is the overhead to run an event at different halls/venues and see what our bottom line would be for an event. Ask ourselves that by moving it to KW are we taking London players out of the mix? I'll be honest that with 40K, there is a lot of people playing now in London with nowhere to go. GW is running single elimination tournies just because they don't have room for normal ones... and people are still signing up! While we may have an increase in cost can we increase our attendance here? Food for thought, so to speak. Cheers. James.
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 10, 2011 15:02:14 GMT -5
For me, its always transportation. I don't have a G2 license yet, I just started to drive a few months ago and currently still completing driving school.
Game wise, I am really looking for some fun casual games. Tuesdays at Videos is more teaching games then anything, so tournaments have been my only time to actually play a solid game. The downside to that is tournament lists, were my armies really suffer from it. My tactics aren't solid enough yet, and tournaments can be too punishing to solidity those tactics at times. I am also having a "I am sick and tired of playing against space marines every single fricking game" wargaming pms lol.
As for the structure, I dunno how I would put input in for that, as I am just looking for some good gaming. Also interested in Hordes too, been wanting to get a Legion army, but I cant find any place I could game at due to transportation issues yet again.
So when I see this thread, I go "could I actually attend this?", but "will the games be enjoyable?" If I go to this and its always space marines I am going to go insane haha. No offense to you marine players but its one of the main reasons I am getting tired of 40K, there is no variety in what I face.
I want to start Malifaux too, but I don't know were to get some teaching games.
Transportation again is always the big issue for me. As long as its always a set date and time it's easier to figure out if I can go or not. It just matters were it is. If its London or Kitchener I am probaly going to be screwed =/
Summarizing this all up, I would love to have a place to get some games in and hang out with you guys more, its just WHERE it is that would effect me. (and dammit I want my G2 lol)
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Post by bionicfatguy on Nov 11, 2011 0:49:13 GMT -5
I only ever got interested in 40k to have a hobby to share with my then 12 year old son, with the Battle for McCragge set being the first purchase. I took to marines because I can relate to them. Walk toward the guy want to kill and shoot him till you are close enough to punch his lights out. Further investigation of the history of the Ultra marines convinced me that when John Wayne died he was reincarnated as Marneus Calgar,a Space Marine. I can no more play some gay little eldar, or bug than I can eat vegetables. With my new bionic parts, I am a friggin space marine. In my case, I have blue ones and red ones, with my favourite colour being death. Thats why I play marines, not because I think they will win more games. Hell, in my case, does anyone really think I spend my money and show up because I think I can win a tourney with an all death co list, or having 1-five man squad that counts as a scoring unit? I had a blast at the Mike Mudd. I thought I was insane with 20 models in a 1850 list, till I played Owen and his 16 model GK list. Those of you who know me really aren't surprised to see me play a list with the Holy Trinity of Blood Angels. Mephiston in his own Stormraven with a Furioso, Dante with Sanguinary Guard and a Priest (I know, wimped out an ended up with a scoring unit) and Lemartes with Death co and Death co dread in a second Stormraven, its a multi theme list - the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost meet the Fast and the furious. Such a list wasn't even legal last codex. I think its too bad that I may not get to play in a league because its a "marine" list and only a few are allowed. In all honesty, I think marines provide the widest range of potential themes of all the armies.
I am interested in playing in a league or whatever format is worked out because I like to play the people that go to Spellbinder. I don't think there is anyone of the group who hasn't had at least a minor win against me in the past few years. I'm still amazed you guys don't always vote me as best sport for showing up with a list that only has a chance in a kill point mission.....
I am of the opinion that a legal list is a legal list, and really, I intend just to show up and play once the rules are sorted out. At this point, the best thing for me is a Sat tourney style event and I thought the legion was a great venue, is it viable from a cost prospective? Maybe we just give out cash prizes, and change out the payout like we did at spellbinder this year. One tourney is best painted gets the big bucks, next is sports etc. Cold even have events that are based on a comp standard - losing points for tilted lists.
Shane
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Post by Skari on Nov 14, 2011 15:22:04 GMT -5
As always thanks to all for your posts and your ongoing support. So I have a few more notes. Scheduling. Tournaments, tentative 2012: January (3rd week) March (HoTlead) June September (Michael Mudd) Dec Last of the year. Invitational? Also, to keep the community up to date on things and as a side project I am starting a podcast: skared.podbean.com/I posted a short introduction. You can subscribe on itunes . I shall be posting upcoming events, tacticas, reviews... the lot. Cheers!
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